Will Generals let Congressmen meet Imran Khan? Why US Military accept Civilian Supremacy?
Date of Interview: 1st April, 2025
Congressman Jack Bergman joined Dr. Moeed Pirzada for a compelling conversation, covering everything from his journey, the Pakistan Caucus, democracy in Pakistan and US, Imran Khan, and his upcoming visit of Congressmen to Pakistan.
Dr. Moeed Pirzada: Assalam-o-alaikum, this is Moeed Pirzada. I am joined by Congressman Jack Bergman from Michigan. Congressman Jack Bergman is not only the co-chair of the Pakistan caucus, along with Congressman Tom Suozzi, but Congressman Jack Bergman has also served with distinction in the United States military and the Marine Corps for 40-plus years and retired as Lieutenant General. He joined the United States Congress in 2017, he brings a very interesting profile to this discussion. Congressman Jack Bergman, a very warm welcome to you. I’m so glad I knew you had so much time problems, and thank you so much for finding 30 minutes for this discussion.
Congressman Jack Bergman: My honor and pleasure, I’m looking forward to your questions and just telling it like it is, which I’m known to do.
Dr. Moeed Pirzada: Congressman, thank you so much once again. Congressman, when I look at your profile and I told your team as well that I’m intrigued that you served with distinction for 40-plus years in the United States military. You retired as a lieutenant general of the Marine Corps, which is the most prestigious wing of the military but then instead and unlike many other of your colleagues who actually take cushy, invisible, corporate jobs and enjoy the perks of it you know with the with various kind of defense industry you have chosen the difficult path. You have chosen to be a public representative; You go from door-to-door, from city-to-city, from town-to-town, to talk on controversial issues like veteran affairs, you talk about the abortion issues, which is a very divisive and polarizing issue, so you take the flak. So I would like to understand for myself and my viewers what compelled you towards this difficult path, the politics.
Congressman Jack Bergman: Well, you know, thanks for the question, because really it’s not a linear answer because my 40 years in the Marine Corps started in the late 60s. A college graduate, a helicopter pilot in Vietnam, got off active duty after about seven years but stayed in the reserve. So, I did a lot of things in the mid-70s, 80s, and 90s to include being an airline pilot, a business owner, an entrepreneur, in the operating room equipment business, and then my military career culminated after 9/11 with seven years back on active duty. So I retired in 2009 and literally retired. I’d retired from the Marine Corps, I had retired from the airlines, and I had retired from my medical equipment businesses. I was just enjoying life as a husband and grandpa.
But like anything else in life, I wasn’t bored because I was doing some things in education, I was doing some things, just a little bit here and there to keep myself busy and keep my mind fresh, and learning new things. Then all of a sudden, literally in November of 2015, my wife and I found out that our congressional seat in our district in Northern Michigan, the incumbent was not going to run again. So I had a joke, I said, you know I’m a Marine, I do pretty simple math. There was no incumbent to vote for, so I asked my wife if she would support me, and she said, “Oh, go ahead, who’s going to vote for you, nobody knows you.”
Well, there in lies never a challenge a Marine to a mission. So I made it my mission to go out and meet the voters of the first district of Michigan, and lo and behold, I won a primary and then won a general election and came here, got sworn in 30 days before my 70th birthday. But the point is I can sum it up in one sentence as to why I am doing what I’m doing now, because I believe in our best self on this earth, we should be servants, and I have a servant’s heart, and to serve my constituents just like I served my country. It’s invigorating, it’s motivating, and it’s fulfilling. Of course, it’s frustrating, but that’s what life is about. I chose to continue to serve so that you will make the world a better place, not an easier place, but a better place, not just for our American citizens but for people around the world, and that’s the kind of ‘why’ I chose to do this career. Also it’s kind of at my age, I’ve been around a long long time seen a lot and it’s tough to pull a wool over my eyes on anything for too long because I’ll eventually figure you out if you’re trying to you know trying to sell me something that maybe isn’t worthwhile.
GVS: So, Congressman, I understand that your father also served in the military, and your uncles also served in the military. So, is serving the military, serving the nation through the military, a tradition and a value, and a sense of honor in your family?
Rep Bergman: Well, it is, and you know my father and my uncle didn’t start out serving in the military; they were drafted when the country needed them at the beginning of 1942. So, like so many Americans during that time frame, men and women alike, everybody stepped up to do the right thing for our country in that time frame. But again, my family imbued a sense of service to the community, service to the country in me. I’m proud that even as a grandfather, I have one grandson right now at West Point. So we have the next generation, or I guess we kind of skipped a generation, because none of our kids were in the military, but now our grandchildren are getting involved, and it’s a sense of service because service comes in many different forms. You can serve in the Marine Corps, and you can serve in the Peace Corps, and every other service organization. I would suggest you fall somewhere between those left and right lateral limits.
GVS: Mashallah, what we say in Urdu in our language is mashallah, you know, be praised to it, so all praise to Allah. I would like to understand, if you look, I’m a keen student of US history. When we look at even from 17th century 18th, century 19th centuries, the United States has been in a situation or at war in one way or the other way. The Indian wars, the Mexican wars, the wars in the First World War, the Second World War, then conflicts in Latin America, and the wars in the Middle East. But throughout this period I looked in the history that the civilian supremacy of the military institutions has remained paramount and the Pakistani people remember that how General Stanley Mcristel when he gave an interview, a slightly irreverent interview to a magazine, how President Obama called him the same week and he was dismissed.
I would like to understand, I mean, you wear both hats, you come from a family that has served in the military, you are, mashallah, retired as a lieutenant general from the US Marines. You’re a military man with a military family, and now you’re a congressman for almost 8 years. So, how has the American political system separated the military from the civilian, and how have they continuously, for almost 300 years, maintained the civilian supremacy of the military institutions is quite a miracle for many people outside this country?
Rep Bergman: Well you know, that’s a fair and honest question and it is a bit of a miracle because there’s a quote back from the original constitutional convention when Benjamin Franklin walked out you know of the building and someone said what form of government do you have and his famous quote was a republic. If you can keep it, and there in lies- the challenge is keeping it. And in my time in the military, looking back and looking forward to our men and women serving today, the military operates as the national defense arm of the United States. To protect our citizens, to protect our borders, and based on our founding documents, the military, you do not wear your rank, whether you’re serving in the military. If you’re a member of a political body, you are not there as a general or as a colonel. You’re there as a representative. And in fact of the committees, I sit on which are three- budget, armed services, and veterans affairs, I had to inform some of my colleagues when I first got on armed services six years ago that when we are in session and when we’re doing anything with defense I am referred to as Mr or Congressman Bergman not General Bergman because this is civilian oversight of the military. There is that definite demarcation line that separates the two, but it’s our belief system.
GVS: Let me interject, i find it very interesting so what happens in your public life, like the country I come from or the country I grew most of the time people long after their retirement are referred to as Colonel Sahab, brigadier Colonel Sahab, means a matter of respect so Colonel Sahib, Brigadier Sahib and General Sahib. So what happens to you, retired as a lieutenant general? Do people refer to you as general, or do people refer to you as congressman?
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Rep Bergman: Well, both! But when I first got here eight plus years ago, you know that I’m one of 435 in the House of Representatives, Democrats and Republicans together, and I’m the highest-ranking combat veteran ever elected to Congress in the history of the United States. All that means is we got some kind of underperforming retired four stars that are sitting on corporate boards, they could easily run for Congress and knock me off that mantle. But when I first got here, my colleagues would come up from both Democrat and Republican and say, “What do you want us to call you?” I said, “Well, how about Jack, it’s my name.” No no no we got to call you congressman general whatever and finally after about two weeks of that I said ‘What do you want to call me’ and the majority of them said ‘We want to call you general because it’s a term of respect and every organization to include ours here in Washington DC at the federal government is looking for good leadership so I guess that’s an affirmation I’m a proven and somewhat quiet but very direct leader. So I think that most of my friends and colleagues here in a non-official manner will refer to me as general, but whatever they want to call me, I’m fine with it.
GVS: So, General Congressman Jack Bergman, let me come back to the quote, which you said that Benjamin Franklin walked out, and he said we would like to have it as a republic, the United States borrowing the idea from the Greek civilization. If we can keep it so, what do you think has been done politically over the past 200, almost 300 years, to keep it as a republic? I was a long time ago reading Condoleezza Rice’s book ‘No Higher Honor’ in which she says that whenever there is a war somewhere, the importance of the military increases because the military has its planes, they can reach Afghanistan or somewhere. We are still catching flights and sitting at the airports. But despite all the conflicts of the past 200-plus years, the United States political system has been able to keep itself as a republic. How has this been done politically?
Rep Bergman: I think it’s been done because there are enough good people who respect the Constitution and respect the principles of freedom and democracy. We are a representative democracy, not a democracy where everybody votes on every bill. My constituents have sent me here to cast a vote on every bill. Think about how chaotic and there’s you know in history we’ve seen examples of where in a true, simple democracy, where everybody voted on everything, you never got anything done. So what I believe, one of the reasons that we as a country have not only survived but thrived is-we believe in the rule of law and we treat others, not just our citizens, but people from around the world with dignity and respect. And we have a really strong sense of morals and ethics involved with a personal sense of integrity that has been put into us, usually by our families. It is where it starts, but in some cases, you know the pastors, the Boy Scout leaders, the coaches, the teachers, the community, and influencers. But, we take great pride in bringing on our next generations to the greatest extent possible. Understanding the history of our country how we got here, where we are today and where we’re going knowing we’re not perfect because in the preamble to the constitution, it says to create a more perfect union; not a perfect union but a more perfect union that has evolved again with those basic principles of freedom as the basis of it.
GVS: Congressman, over the years I have started to understand, I mean it’s my perception my understanding that democracy is rule of law, the difference between a monarchical, monarchs can be very good administrators but the essential difference is that in democracy it’s a rule of law because every man like you me even like look what happened to Bob Menendez who was such a respected character. I mean, so respected even a judge wrote in his decision that you were one of the most powerful men, but you have violated the system, and so on, so equality before the rule of law is what democracy is to me. Do you agree to this?
Rep Bergman: I do, because again, first of all, you’re guilty. You’re in around here these days, you think you were guilty until proven innocent. I almost said that backwards. You are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, right? That’s the way, that’s what we believe. Nobody can bring charges against you just because they don’t like you. We see some of that kind of activity now, mainly stoked, I think, through the media because the media wants to get people excited, and I know you’re with the media but let’s face it the goal of the media is to get people to listen to their podcasts, watch their TV shows, read their whatever they put out on on social media, and the media has to be very careful that they don’t accidentally cross any lines.
Because, you know, the First Amendment rights of freedom of speech, I mean, I’m not going to do anything that is going to restrict the media from saying what it says. It’s up to the American people to say to the media through their subscriptions, through their viewings. To say, I don’t like not that ‘I don’t like what you’re saying, but I don’t believe that you’re telling me the truth’. Truth goes a long way, and people have a way of figuring out what’s true and what’s not.
GVS: So, Congressman with this strong belief in rule of law and democracy, how do we explain that for in especially in the post postwar period after the second world war, United States has increasingly supported dictatorships military regimes let it be in East Asia, in Indonesia, in Latin America, in Middle East, in countries like Pakistan?. What is the dichotomy? How do we make sense of it?
Rep Bergman: well when you think about back when Thomas Jefferson who was our third president was Secretary of State in his first role and he believed in international diplomacy and the outreach to other countries who looked at the world very different than the the early United States did i think what we have to do as a country and we are in a situation right now where our department of state under secretary Rubio is doing doing I’ll say some cleanup work that has been neglected by the state department and not just in the last four years but our state department for the last 30 years has gone a drift and gotten out of the business of the international relations with the different countries knowing that some countries are going to be better partnered than others. In some cases, we have to tell countries we can’t agree with who you are and how you treat your people. If you will as a country so we’re going to probably limit our interactions with you at the same time we’re going to do what we can as the United States to build those partnerships with countries i don’t care whether it’s Indonesia Pakistan whether it’s Finland pick your one of the Baltic states, we will work with anyone and try to build a relationship with them. But they have to be shall we say good people, treating their people right, otherwise we get a little standoffish when it comes to supporting them.
GVS: So, Congressman, you’re also a member of the Republican party, the ruling party, at the moment. So, from what you said, do I correctly understand that the Trump administration and the Republican party now will take or signal, at least maybe, if they don’t do it overtly by saying the words, they will at least covertly convey to the other countries across the world that we want you to align yourself with with the rule of law, human rights, with constitutionalism, and these are the components of democracy. Am I correctly understanding you? This is what Marco Rubio will do?
Rep Bergman: The short answer is yes. And we do it at different levels through the diplomatic channels. There are a lot of relationships. Think of all the countries that have their embassies here in the United States, and you’ve had your ambassadors and your different people who have built relationships with the people here in Washington, DC. But we, as the United States, are a nation that has built itself and not perfectly. You know, again, we’re not perfect; there’s no such thing as perfection. We try every day to do the right thing for the right reasons. But knowing that some countries are in situations where they may not be the best partner right now. We just kind of have to sit on the sidelines and wait to help, but when the door is open, we will be more than happy to engage. But it’s like anything over time, it’s a challenge to maintain good relationships, especially when the people in charge change, and you have to start to build a new relationship from the beginning. Once there’s a new uh party in power or whatever it happens to be, depending on what the country’s form of government is being referred to as.
GVS: So Congressman, in last several weeks, Vice President JD Vance and also Elon Musk and some of the other cabinet members of the Trump administration lectured United Kingdom and Europeans on freedom of expression that you know you’re not really respecting the freedom of expression at the same time no lecture has been given to a country like Pakistan you co-chairman of the Pakistan caucus. I mean not a single word about what’s happening to media and people like me, who is a prominent Pakistani television anchor person, are forced to live in exile in this country, our properties have been confiscated, cases have been raised against us, there are hundreds of instances of transnational repression.
There have been people reporting to the Federal Bureau of Investigation, and journalists are being picked up, and you know Twitter is banned in Pakistan. You know, platforms are cracking down, social media activists are under pressure, so not a single word from the Trump administration so far while they’re lecturing countries like the United Kingdom with impeccable records of freedom of expression, not a word to basically tell the Pakistani administration to look what’s happening.
Rep Bergman: Well, I would suggest to you that in this particular case, when, for example, Vice President Vance offered his remarks, he was literally in Europe, so he was talking face to face and live. I would suggest to you that you have to be with this case, the United States in our executive branch, and a leadership role of building all those diplomatic connections again, that’s the president’s job and his administration. That is not the role of Congress, whether it be the Senate or the House of Representatives. Our role is to legislate and work with any president to offer good laws and policies, but we’re really not going to, I guess, intervene unless it’s appropriate. And again, I’ll end it with Vice President Vance being in Europe and speaking to those folks, then it was appropriate because you’re right there talking to them.
GVS: Right so recently I had a very interesting discussion with your co-chairperson of the Pakistan caucus Congressman Tom Suozzi from New York and I asked him the question that congressman what can you do in terms of you know promoting or supporting democracy maybe if not overtly then covertly from the Pakistan caucus because people expect you to play some sort of role in the same issues like release of prisoners, democracy, rule of law, freedom of expression, and he said look I mean all these things are very good but I don’t want to be interfering into the internal affairs of Pakistan. Now you’re also the co-chairperson, co-chairperson from the Republican side, he’s from the Democratic side, what is your view? I mean, I believe that you’re going to Pakistan, both you and Tom Suozzi will be visiting Pakistan in April. Are you going to raise these issues of freedom of expression, the rule of law situation of the courts, the release of the prisoners, Imran Khan? I think I had some time, you also tweeted about him, so what is your position on those issues, Congressman?
Rep Bergman: Well, yes, we will be going to Pakistan soon, and I believe my role there is to meet as many people as possible in the time we’re on the ground and to listen and begin to form more exact opinions based upon what I see and what I experience. And again. I’m with like my colleague Congressman Suozzi, we’re there to listen, learn, meet people, and then hopefully, as the situation is appropriate, enable the United States on the diplomatic side to begin to move forward with next steps. But we cannot solve any country’s problems for them, but we have to be good listeners so that we understand not only the big picture problems but the nuances that are going on in countries like this case in Pakistan.
GVS: Congressman, you make perfect sense that your job is to listen, to understand the nuances. I mean, you want to listen to all sides. So are you going to visit, meet the leadership of Pakistan Tehreek-I-Insaf, Imran Khan’s party? Are you also going to listen to them because, as per the February 2024 elections, I referred to the House Resolution 901, for which I think you voted yourself. This is the largest political party in the country, the opposition party. You are also going to listen to them as to what their issues are?
Rep Bergman: I think it’s important that I, or we, as representatives of the United States government, listen to everybody’s position and do it in an honest, non-biased manner. When we’re there and then Congressman Suozzi and I and the other members of the caucus, we’ll make up our own minds as far as what we experienced in Pakistan. To see what next steps, if any, would be appropriate for us as the House of Representatives. The House of Representatives is not part of the diplomatic arm, but our job as representatives is to pass laws, create policy, but are reflective of the realities around the world, and that’s why we go on these trips.
GVS: So, can we expect that your itinerary can include meeting with the bar associations, the legal bodies, the lawyers, the attorneys, the civil rights activists, the media people, the TV anchors, and other commentators so that you can get a feel. Because if you only meet the government, they’re going to tell you it’s all good. But unless you meet the media, maybe the international media in Pakistan, like the BBC, the Al Jazeera, the Pakistani media, only then can you get a sense of what’s really happening in the country.
Rep Bergman: Yeah. I don’t have the exact itinerary yet. I’m going to get it here probably in the next two to three days, and we’ll see, but my guidance to the folks planning it was just that to meet with all sides to understand from as broad a base as possible what’s going on in Pakistan.
GVS: Is there any possibility that you and Tom Suozzi can also meet the former prime minister of Pakistan Imran Khan who is in jail in Adiala for almost nothing, for more than 600 days?
Rep Bergman: Again. Those who are controlling the planning, we have set our criteria-which was again to meet as many people as possible, and I think it would be a very positive thing if we could meet with Imran Khan. Whether that’ll happen, we’re guests of the Pakistani government at that point. When we come in there on a kind of congressional delegation, it’s official but not official. We’re not representing the United States government and President Trump, we’re representing just the caucus and a group of people who want to get more involved in positive outcomes for the international relationship between the United States and Pakistan.
GVS: Congressman, I’m very glad. I know that we’re running short of time. I’m very glad that you said that it would be good if you and Congressman Tom Suozzi and your delegation could meet Imran Khan, which can break the ice. I mean that can be very important. One last question to you- what would you recommend to the Pakistani American communities that have become far more entrenched and entrusted, and involved in the politics over the past 3 years? They have never been that active in US politics as they are now. What would you advise them going forward as to what their responsibilities are? I mean, what kind of role can they play within the US political system? What’s your advice?
Rep Bergman: Well, my advice to anyone, but especially the Pakistani-Americans here, number one-get involved, try to come into whatever the discussion is without a prejudice to a certain way. Try to kind of keep the temperature down, as we would say here, a little bit find out a little more about what the bigger picture issues are. Whether it be here what we’re dealing with the United States, whether they’re what they’re dealing with friends and family members still in Pakistan, and understand that the the there are certain times that we need to decide on something but most times whatever is being presented to us we don’t have to react right then. We can pause, think again, take another look at it, and be as open-minded as possible. But do not be afraid and do not be hesitant to speak your mind if that’s what you believe, but do it in such a way that it draws others to you, not pushes people away from you.
GVS: Congressman Bergman, thank you so much for finding time to give me generous time, responding to all the questions in a very candid fashion. I’m sure the people are really going to take an interest and I’m also I also look forward to staying in touch with you.
Rep Bregman: Sounds good, it was my honor and pleasure, and I look forward to meeting you and shaking your hand in person one of these days.
GVS: I look forward to that, Congressman look forward to that. Thank you so much!
Rep Bergman: Thank you!